tv Charlie Rose Bloomberg July 29, 2015 6:00pm-7:01pm EDT
♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we turn now to the nfl and the decision by commissioner roger goodell to uphold tom's suspension for his role in deflategate. the quarterback is scheduled to sit out the first four games of the season for his alleged role of improperly deflated game balls. they cited new evidence brady destroyed his cell phone that had text messages. this behavior the league said in a statement, went behind -- beyond failure to cooperate and that he had sought to hide
evidence of his own participation. radio has maintained his innocence and has authorized the players association to appeal his case in federal point. escort. joining these can lead been reporting on this, and rachel nichols an anchor for cnn. surprised? rachel: i'm not surprised the suspension was upheld necessarily. they have been talking settlement talks. you have to figure the nfl is going to go all out. what is the bombshell is the cellphone issue. that is not something anyone expected. for months, we heard tom brady did not want to get over his cell phone. i interviewed his rate -- agent. he made the point of, tom brady is married to dissolve -- gisele pidgeon, he does not want anything leaking. he said that he did not want to trust them. but there is a big difference between i don't want to give it to you and what now the end of
file has said -- nfl has said, that tom brady destroyed his cell phone on the date the investigator came to the door to see him. charlie: representative ted wells. and that came from brady. rachel: right. the nfl is the one that released it. tom brady said in the appeal hearing and the reason why, if he switches cell phone every for five months and he always asks his assistant to destroy the cell phone and thin card for privacy reasons. i don't know if cell phone destroyer is a job in their entourage, i have no idea. but according to him this is a regular thing. charlie: and a big deal for the commissioner. rachel: the nfl said we don't buy it, because you did it on the day ted wells came to see you. and they also pointed out there was a previous cell phone of tom
brady, that in this whole process was brought to them as a showing of his innocence. their claim was, if you always destroyed your cell phone, how come we know about this previous intact phone? of course, tom brady's side does not see it the same way. charlie: what do you think about this evidence? ken: it moved it from deflategate to cell gate. people are not talking about atmospherics anymore. i think tom brady's credibility has been undercut severely. which will bolster at some level roger goodell's case that i have to protect the integrity of the game. he essentially admitted the findings of the report are correct by destroying the cell phone. charlie: let's make sure we understand. by acknowledging he destroyed the cell phone he admitted the findings of the wealth commission -- wells commission is correct. ken: that is the way the
commission season. charlie: but we can't necessarily assume that is true, although if you looked at it in terms of the most likely scenario? ken: right. and then we get into a martha stewart scenario, it's not the crime, it's the cover-up. [laughter] charlie:ken: and now it is going to end up in court. this season we will hear it throughout most of the season unless there is a stay and he's not suspended. charlie: what are the ramifications? ken: his legacy is that issue. i don't know if sports writers will hold it against him. he is already wealthy and has for super bowl rings, so maybe it will not meet -- mean much. charlie: i think it will. it seems like his reputation means everything. rachel: you would have the word cheater fixed gear name for the rest of your night -- life. i think it will be a very big deal to his legacy.
and it is not a mistake we are talking about the cell phone. that is what the nfl wants us to be talking about. the players association came back hard, with a statement. they were very critical of the nfl, and they say making the cell phone an issue is a new low. they don't think the cell phone records, which they claim all the information, the nfl already has it anyway. they go back to the previous issue. about what the definition of is is. how many times do we get into these cases? we have gone so far from the initial moment of the afc championship game. that is another big issue for the nfl. this could have been taken care of on so many smaller stages. but here we are, making national news. charlie: is this worried about going to a bigger stage? ken: they probably did not want
a ruling in the middle of the super bowl. charlie: what if tom brady had said -- to sit down you have to be punished and they would have to have a conversation about the punishment? ken: they could have done that. they could have sped up the investigation to view themselves as impartial, they hired ted wells. that went on break couple of months. then we got the suspension. i would have affected draft plans if they suspended him and taken away draft picks before the draft. now we are into july already and the season is about to start. rachel: and we are still going to be talking about it because both sides are going to court. and the nfl filed a preemptive suit in new york, because they leave new york will be more management friendly. the nfl pa is filing a suit in minnesota because the federal district court has proven to be more labor friendly. so now, not only are we fighting
over air pressure in footballs cell phones, who said what to do when, whose nickname was the deflator, but now is this case going to be adjudicated in new york or minnesota? charlie: what is the likelihood of somebody stepping forward and saying, i know what really happened? rachel: i don't know. the patriots did fire the equipment manager in question. there is always the idea one of those guys could talk because they are upset about what happened. but not yet. ken: and there's no incentive at this point. they have already lost their jobs. they may be angry, but why do they need to step forward and help tom? that could have happened earlier. rachel: they could have stepped forward the other way. who knows what they have to say. charlie: so why didn't they step forward? ken: they've already been fired. charlie: because we don't know what they would say? ken: right. rachel: another big question is
what were they fired for? the patriots said they don't understand why the nfl is trying to destroy the reputation of its best player. they say they believe tom and stand behind tom. the question circles back to wi-fi or the two equipment guys? if there's nothing wrong, why did you fire them? it's another question. charlie: what's another unanswered question? ken: brady argues that the phones were regularly destroyed. actually, celebrities do that all the time. it's not out of the realm of possibility. the day of is obviously suspicious. that is one. also, destroying iphone doesn't mean records are not kept on a server from the cell phone company. charlie: let me go back -- suppose there had been some
deflation. suppose tom brady had said, i want to man up on this. i was aware. i did not make a big deal out of it. i know there was a rule, but i'm sorry it happened. what would have happened? rachel: a lot of people, when you talk about who is responsible for this blowing up, the nfl is hardly responsible here it there are a lot of people who blame tom brady as well. there could have been a time early on, which he did not do. i like my football at the lowest legal limit of deflation. if somewhere along the way, there was a miscommunication between me and the equipment guys, i will shoulder the blame. i'm the quarterback. that is my doing. i'm going to step forward. we were never trying to cheat. we would never do that. but if somehow in trying to push the brink of the rules, we pushed past day, we will stand
up and take the punishment because we care about integrity. if he had said that, this would be over. ken: it would have worked except it was two weeks before the super bowl. rachel: unlike like the fact that a already -- this has already gone so far and c ast such a big cloud. now you have spiky and people wondering about the legacy of the new england patriots. ken: about this, you have great hearty, ray rice, adrian peterson, the commissioner has had to put in new policies on domestic violence and has had to draw lines. he seems to have felt that he has no choice but to come home -- come down hard on tom brady. charlie: you think that was his sense of reality? ken: yes, he's under track -- attacked for being arbitrary. now you have issues about the integrity of the game. at that point, any commissioner was a -- will say, we can go any
farther. charlie: if the ball had been deflated, would it have an impact on the game? rachel: i'm not sure that actually matters. i know everyone goes back to that, but i don't care about that. you break the rules or you don't break the rules. i don't think it needed to become a national nightmare. [laughter] i don't think that is our punishment. charlie: it came from gerald ford. rachel: how many presidents? but yes i don't think our punishment fits the crime. i don't think it had been taken care of quickly the way it should have. you can't break the rules. charlie: so where does it go from here? ken: mark barton cases, trips to minnesota, jurisdictional fight. it will bleed into the entire season. charlie: as of now, tom brady
will not play first four games? ken: as of now. unless they get an injunction. unless there is a weird possibility he could be upheld and sitting out later in the season. charlie: which is not good. rachel: the risk you take is you have an injunction now, he plays and then you miss a playoff game. charlie: thank you. thank you for coming in. it's a pleasure. that a moment. stay with us. ♪ back in a moment. stay with us. ♪
charlie: we begin with the latest in the fight against isis. turkey announced it would cooperate with the u.s. in the battle. it will now allow americans to use turkish airbase is to target groups in serious -- syria. turkey was previously criticized for its lack of focus in stemming the tide. joining me from washington ambassador rhett mcgurk. even an envoy for the coalition against isis. help us understand -- thank you for your much. -- very much. what is your title? brett: special envoy. we are both diplomats.
in our roles. charlie: help me understand how this turkey thing happened. brett: it has been a long process. it has been a 9-10 month office. we began intensive discussions with the turks as soon as we set up this international coalition in september. ticky had a number of concerns and issues -- turkey had a number of concerns. and we had issues to work out as well. president obama has had two conversations with their president about ifo. the first one in october the town of khobani was about to fall. had that filing, the entire northern border would have been can -- controlled by isil. president obama wanted to do and
airdrop. there were only a few hundred kurds. he called the other president in the had an in-depth conversation. myself and general allen went out to discuss the situation, and negotiated with them, opening up a corridor through turkey to come in and resupply would heavy weapons. that started a very in-depth process with turkey. that ended up being a very big success. we then approved turkey to work with them for the modern opposition. there is a waste to go, but we have had good cooperation. a number of steps. they had election so it's slow down a little bit. three weeks ago, the talks accelerated. turkey agreed to open up basis for our aircraft to strike isis targets in syria and iraq, with turkish f-16 flying alongside
us. some of the details have to be worked out. i'm just coming from a meeting at the pentagon with secretary kerry and secretary carter and the generals about coordinating this. we have a team on the ground in turkey now. we will move fairly fast though still have details. charlie: you mentioned the pkk. what role do they play? brett: it's interesting, because a lot of this seems to be entertained, but it's not -- inter-tangle. but it is not. we did not agree anything until we came back and had a president with -- meeting with president obama. president obama discussed the issue with the president of turkey and that is when it was sealed. it was two days before that conversation before the pkk launched a series of attacks and
killed a number of turkish police officers and soldiers. those attacks where the drinking event for turkish -- triggering event for turkish raids in the candle mountains. this is a pattern. pkk attacks and turkish retaliation. it is a pattern nobody likes to see. we recognize turkey's right to self defense. we also call on parties to deescalate. with triggering events, it was attacked by the pkk. if they did not initiate attacks in turkey, turkey would not be attacking the pkk in northern iraq. but the pkk had nothing to do with our discussions regarding i sold. -- isil. charlie: no turkish troops in iraq or syria? brett: yes, and we discussed this with them. with turkish soldiers be a part
of operations on the ground in syria? turkey told us that is not something they work on -- contemplating. they wanted to use maneuver units to fight isil. the last time i was on your show, since then we were a week into the bombing campaign. we have done 6000 or so airstrikes. of course, we have had a number of ground operations in syria and iraq. we have learned when you have a maneuver force on the ground, we can coordinate with them, then we can be pretty devastating against isilk. if you look at the euphrates river everything to the east on the border, hundreds of kilometers that i sold===sil used
to control -- everything to the west, there is a 90 kilometer strip a still control. that is the straight we are focused on. if we can help the syrians get control of the area working with turkey isil will no longer have an outlet. there proclaimed caliphate will be more of a self contained problem. and then you can see how we can start to squeeze it into the euphrates province. make no mistake, this is going to take a long time, it is going to be extremely difficult, but some of the elements are starting to come into place, where you can see synchronization between syria and iraq to constrict and squeeze isil. charlie: the iraqis are constantly wondering when the
counter on ramadi will take place? brett: it has already begun. it happened two weeks ago. it is an extended campaign. they are making good progress. this is something we also just reviewed at the pentagon. this is also another instructive example. when ramadi fell to isil it was a significant setback. we got together and the liberated with the iraqis. the prime minister got his government together and pulled together sunni, shia, and kurds, a plan. it is moving forward. some of the units we have trained -- it takes months to train them. there are now on the field in anbar. iraqi security forces to the south, a few kilometers from the boundary line, retook anbar university.
we are enabling this, we are coordinating. you may recall a decision the president made two months ago to open up a new platform, and advise and assist facility at the air base the between ramadi and falluja. we are there, special forces are there, and we are helping advise and assist the operation to take ramadi back. it is slow going, but ongoing. charlie: who controls falluja? brett: it has been under control of isil for almost 18 months. it felt new year's years of 2014. but it is now surrounded. isil is isolated in there. there are using it as a hub to launch attacks. there are no longer able to do that. charlie: it is said that it will be of significant advantage for american airstrikes to have access to turkish bases. how significant? brett: very significant.
if you look at the northern border area the 90 kilometer stretch, it is significant because isil is reinforced there. it is a huge strategic i set -- asset for them. they had also tried to move to the west to break through and threatens significant border crossings in turkey. we help get humanitarian aid into the northern strip north of aleppo. if isil what you do that, that would be a significant blow to the campaign. we have in striking targets in the area over the past two months. but we are flying from the gulf, or bahrain, thousands of miles away. the air base is 150 kilometers away. it would make a significant difference. 24/7 later time. it is something military commanders always said
would make a difference. it will allow us to put pressure on isil in very strategic areas on a 20 47 basis. charlie: the president is opposed to having american forces close to the front lines is that still his policy? charlie: the president has been -- brett: the president has been very explicit, he has not taken actions off the table. he said if the military had come to him with a recommendation, he would consider it. no options have been taken off the table, but those recommendations have not been presented to him. charlie: why not? brett: we are watching what works. when we had and advise and assist platform as we just set up and we just got their six weeks ago the idea is if you are located with iraqi commanders indirect touch with
security forces in the field, and how we have our chain of command controlling the airstrikes -- we can actually have a very good affect without putting u.s. forces in the field. this is something that i know is discussed within the defense department, and should the recommendation come to the president, he would consider it. charlie: there is an idea of no-fly zones. whenever i've introduced -- interviewed president erdogan he almost every time brings up the idea about no-fly zones. he had a number of reasons for wanting that. that seems to be an idea that is gaining enormous attention. brett: it is interesting, a lot has changed since the turks put that on the table. one thing that has changed is we have done about 5600 airstrikes,
flying in syrian airspace every day. the last time i talk to you this was brand-new. now we know an awful lot. 40% of the airstrikes are in syria. when we are flying with great density, the regime does not come near there. we don't see the need for a declared no-fly zone. when we are operating in kobani we have a de facto no-fly zone. we made it very clear to the regime we are there to strike isil. so far, they have clearly gotten that message. charlie: when i spoke to president erdogan he always says you can't even control your own borders so why do you expect me to control my? brett: there is some of that. that is the problem of the foreign fighter flow. it is a global problem. thousands of fighters from all over the world coming to iraq. building this coalition, we have
been all over the world. everywhere we go, we hear that this is a top-tier national security problem, from singapore to malaysia, australia belgium. everywhere. they are all coming through turkey. it is an issue for turkey first and foremost. but it is also an issue of feeder countries to share information with turkey. that is something we have had difficulties with. within the coalition, we have five main lines of effort. one of them is working on foreign fighters to have better cooperation across borders. we are starting to have good effects there. we know a lot about the networks now than ever before. now that we have information, how do you start to shock the networks and rolled them up? turkey, in the last 10 days we had the ambassador talking about this. they have made significant inroads into some of the foreign
fighter facilitation networks. they are sharing good information with us. this will continue. sadly, there is more turkey can do. -- certainly there is more turkey can do. but there is also a lot more the entire global community can do. there is a security council resolution calling on all nationstates to enforce laws against foreign fighters. it is something we have to focus on. we had a number of convictions and arrest today in the united states against isil inspired individuals. you don't have to be a foreign fighter and go train in a training camp, you can be indoctrinated and radicalized at home through the internet. this is a huge challenge of the campaign. turkey is a piece, but not the only piece. charlie: every day. all of us ask this every day. what is the attraction of isil and the caliphate, for young
people who discover it on social media? the state department has initiated a kind of counterforce on social media. but what is the attraction? brett: we find our different litigate -- motivations. they put out a very positive message on one level. come be a part of this glorious historical movement. it is perverse, but on that level, it is kind of sundrenched and children eating ice cream cones. people are attracted to that. it is a historical movement they can be a part of to be bigger than themselves. of course it is totally false and perverse but that is one line. another part is the bottom feeders of society. they are trying to attract, come join isil in syria, basically you can do whatever you want. that is the gore and mayhem they put online. they recruit through promises of actual slavery and having a sex drive. it is -- sex bride.
it is perverse on a multidimensional level. they also appeal to different messages. it might be more religiously in the gulf, more uplifting in europe. most importantly, to get the messaging right, we have to defeat isil. first and foremost, we have to show this is not expanding. it is shrinking. if you go to the caliphate, you are not going to live a life of luxury as a jihadist fighter with a sex bride. you will actually die a horrible death in a dusty field. that happens to be the truth so we have to get that out. we think the tide may be starting to turn. but this is a difficult challenge. it is a global challenge. it is one reason that not just something the u.s. is doing. we have to build this global coalition.
tomorrow and on thursday in quebec, we are bringing together 23 core members of the coalition to roll up our sleeves and figure out where we synchronize, where are we not synchronized, what can we do better. we will have a much higher level session to figure out what is working and what is not. we are constantly correcting the lines of effort falling behind. charlie: i would look forward to talking to you right after that to get a sense of what comes out of that, and what is the assessment of coalition partners. thank you so much. we'll be right back. stay with us. ♪
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visit philipslifeline.com/caregiver today or call this number for your free brochure and ask about free activation. charlie: we continue our conversation on the fight against isis and turkey's role. joining me is the ambassador, the vice president of the center for the middle east at the atlantic council. he served as a u.s. ambassador to turkey until last year. also, stephen cook, a senior fellow at the council on foreign relations. henri is the director. and the author of a book, i am pleased to have all of them on the program. mr. ambassador, i began with you and your understanding of many things turkish.
what do you think is going on? you heard from brett. where do you think the turks are coming from, and why are they now allowing the united dates to use their bases for airstrikes in syria and iraq? guest: a couple of things have led to this development. maybe three. persistent american diplomatic engagement with the turks, and a certain amount of cooperation along, despite the failure to have a strategic meeting of the mines. but that engagement has been there and skillful. beyond that, i think isis made a very bad mistake if they did not direct attacks on turkey, then the inspiration seems to there. that seems to have sealed the enmity of the turks, made it open towards isis.
don't forget, isis took 40 turkish officials highs -- hostage over a year ago. that was a gross humiliation of the turks, and have not forgotten that. that enmity was there and it was unleashed last week with the terrorist attack. those factors are there. and then there is turkish politics behind some of this as well. having gone through an election a lot of controversy about the syria policy. charlie: how will this change the game? steven: i agree with frank the turks had a significant amount of enmity towards the islamic state. but it strikes me there is something much more that is going on here. the turks are seeking, given the realities of turkish politics and what is happening in northern syria, given the state
of the peace process between the government and workers party, that the turks are using the fight against isis which they had not been much interested in directly previously, to take care of other business. that is to ensure that in part, that the kurds of northern syria are unable to establish an independent canton there. that is the motivation behind this specific safe zone. whether it changes the game for the good or the bad, remains to be seen. but you can imagine a whole host of scenarios in which turkey and by association the u.s., gets more deeply involved in this syria conflict. a war that seemingly is without end. charlie: speak to that, david. you know the situation better than most. david: we should not whitewash the fact that turkish officials
and government has been accomplices in the islamic state. they allowed the jihadi highway to run into syria. financing, logistics, medical care of wounded islamic state fighters has been the norm. it is only recently we have seen arrests of islamic state personnel. they permeated the society. charlie: do you want them about this? david: we want them, but the islamic state and akp's share of world view. when they say women should not smile and public you think it is the caliphate talking. they shared values. charlie: including the development of a caliphate in iraq and syria? david: that is certainly the goal of the islamic state. the goal of the akp is the islamic led government in turkey. they make no bones about that. they have been very clear. they have not been a good ally.
it is only recently that have allowed the training program. charlie: i just want to clear this up, everybody is saying this is about the kurds rather than anything else. with respect to turkey. henri: it is about the kurds, but it is also bad about the relationship with the united states. two very important things happened. very much increased criticism in washington with respect to isis. the president twice criticized the turks for not cooperating on isis. there was a perception that the united states was essentially, not only angry but excruciating itself from turkey on the question of syria. secondly, the united states essentially made a tactical alliance with the syrian kurds, whereby we became essentially the syrian kurds'air force.
it is with the help of the american air force that the current -- syrian kurds managed to beat isis. in the only group that has succeeded in beating isis. this is what the president referred to the other day when he said, we have the proper allies, then we can beat isis. one other thing that was very critical, that is the american operations in the region, the americans invited a syrian kurd to sit there. what the kurdistan was an alliance between the united states and syrian kurds. precisely that turkey does not want to become more powerful. those are the things that essentially scared the turks.
they did -- the decision to open up the bases with before the terrorist attack. the terrorist attack allowed the turks to announce it sooner than they were planning to. i think they were planning on the end of august heard they did it sooner because of the attack. but the decision was made before. charlie: who was responsible for the terrorist attack? henril:: it looks like it was isis. they have not claimed it, but the person who blew himself up had fought with isis in syria. he is a kurd from another part of the southeast. a group of kurds who are sympathetic to isis. he is not the first one to do it. there was a bomb just before the elections at the kurdish political party rally. the person who blew himself there came from the same group that also did the attack in --
the other day that kill people. >> we don't know who committed the terrorist attack. but we do note the kurds believe it was a bomber working closely with the national intelligence agency of turkey. the reason why they targeted turkish policeman, in response to the bombing, was they felt the policeman had a track record of close ties to isis. after they committed the two writers, turkey responded -- committed the two murders, turkey responded. there is speculation. clearly, turkey used that as justification for launching this heavy-handed series of airstrikes against the pkk. now we see an escalation of violence that destroyed the peace process. it has created confusion between the u.s. and kurds of syria, who had ideological ties to the pkk
and who have been our only allies in syria today. charlie: mr. ambassador, what do you think? >> not sure this much confusion between the u.s. and kurds of syria. one thing i see that we should watch is at least a hypothesis i think it may be emerging as something that is maybe a reality. turkey may be coming closer to what has been the united states and other allies views of the kurds of syria. that is to say, as distinct from the pkk. we and the european union have identified the turkish kurdish pkk as an international terrorist group to be sanctioned and shunned and so forth. and against which of course, the turkish republic has every right to defend itself leaving aside, who provoked or whether this was a intelligence plot. there are all kinds of intelligence -- conspiracy
theories. since the attack on kobani last october, we have sided with the pyd as not pkk. there are personal connections and affinities shared ideologies. all of that. probably shared ambitions. but the pyd has said explicitly, we have no quarrel with the turkish state. whereas the pkk has targeted the turkish state. they are separate. lately, since turkey has come out with this agreement, turkish officials statements are indicating that turkey also recognizes this distinction. and indeed, the political spokesperson for the syrian kurds, the pyd, has overtly met with high officials in turkey. it looks like the government of turkey is also making that discussion -- thinking. that is also useful in the american interest towards this.
charlie: let me finish david and then i will come back to you. david: we have tactical cooperation with the pyd, but its cochairman has applied for a visa to come to the united states. it has been sitting at the u.s. embassy in stockholm for two years. we meet with him occasionally in paris, but there is no full embrace of the syrian kurds. there should be. they have been the point of the spear against isis. if we are serious about degrading isis, we have to work with boots on the grounds. the only effective fighters are the kurds. henri: first of all, we are working with the syrian pyd. we have the office with the american offices. the corporation is actually quite extensive. if we are not giving a visa to the head of pyd, which i think
it's a mistake, is not to get the turks angry. i disagree with frank. i think the turks are very much opposed to the pyd. they do not see a difference between the pyd and pkk. when you look at the turkish press, especially the government these are the people saying the pyd is worse than isis. if they had a choice, they would rather the teeth -- pyd then isis. when isis tried to over onerun run kobani, erdogan made it very clear they wanted it to fall to isis. then he said, what is in kobani? oil, gold, diamonds? the turks may be telling us they see a difference, but they are not. charlie: that this 95 the idea
that the turkish government wanted isis to take bonnie -- kobani. that is because they were with isis on this? henri: no, not because they are allied, but because eight kurdish entity is enough in my in northern syria. it makes the current stronger in bargaining position in having to independent kurdish state. that is the fear for the turks. isis is not. charlie: stephan, the turks appear to change -- prepared to change their protection of borders? steven: this has been the change for a number of years the argument they had for a number of years. you had to encourage them to do this. in fact, they have helped create
the current situation in turkey by first turning a blind eye to jihadists making their way through territory. in the absence of an american intervention they turned a blind eye to jihadists making their way as a way of punishing the offside regime. over time, and infrastructure developed along turkey's border with syria that had supported a network of jihadists. there is no specific evidence that turkey directly aided isis. but of course they had coordinated with other extremist groups to get after the regime. that is why the border situation is as it has been. they have only in fits and starts trying to secure the border with a, under heavy external pressure. i want to go back to something that henri was saying.
it is important for everybody to understand that the turks have different priorities from the united states and nato partners. it is first making sure that kurdish nationalism is suppressed, and the focus of that has been in northern syria. secondly, it is isis. that is exactly why they sat back and watched isis take kobani. that is exactly why they have sought to break the territorial integrity that the kurdish -- northern syrian kurds try to establish. a week ago erdogan said that turkey could not tolerate an independent entity in northern syria. >> there is an agenda here.
for ersogan, the problems was the setback. after the election. putting pressure on the syrian kurds to destabilize the situation, to show the domestic public that he and the akp are the only ones who can manage the potential instability and chaos that comes in turkey as a result of terrorism. charlie: is this a dramatic turn or simply something that is an agenda of the moment? >> i think turkey's overt improving of its alliance and cooperation with the united states against isis is dramatic and important. and very meaningful on the ground. it should help seal the border against isis crossing and resupply. that is important.
on the kurdish french it is a complicating factor there. but the reason we don't embrace the u.s. -- the u.s. government has not embraced the pyd, is precisely because we do not, or did not, support any separation of a kurdish region of syria into some other kind of state. all the effort of american diplomacy in the past several years has been to push encourage the kurds of syria to work with each other and with other groups in the opposition. that is the reason we have not embraced in them. if there is a difference between the pyd and pkk, it is only recent. very recently. that is very useful and important to turkey and the allies being on the same side with respect to what is going on on the ground in syria. charlie: do you think this has
anything to do with the most recent election? francis: yes. nationalism is always a big demon turkish elections. that the party that is called the constituency is mainly kurdish, they appeal beyond the base as much as possible. and tried to show they stood for something else, for peaceful resolution of the conflict. and he advocated democracy and a more progressive agenda, and not a ethnocentric kurdish one. everyone knew who the constituency was. now with this conflict breaking out and going hot between the pkk and the government at least suspending the peace process, if not finishing it that injects
the whole kurdish national versus turkish nationalist struggle against them. it is very poisonous. a bad thing for turkey. it is a distracting thing within syria. the coalition's effort to have a united front against isis. it is a bad thing. i hope the pkk and government can find their way back to a political process to end the armed insurrection, and find a political solution. charlie: turkey has been vigorous and its denunciation of assad. the united states say it favors his removal. but at the same time, has seemed to have dual objectives in syria. what might be possible in terms of some pathway to ending this awful thing where is it today
in each of your judgments? henri: i think the oppression of the moderate forces is a nonstarter. i don't see the moderate forces and mounting -- amounting to much. you have three powerful groups in syria today. one is isis, the kurds and third is a patchwork of battle hardened al qaeda and al qaeda look-alikes who are not being supported by turkey or qatar who have actually done a great deal of damage. they admitted that aleppo may actually fall to them. i actually don't see the moderate playing at all. i think it is too late for the moderates. this is a dilemma the u.s. faces. charlie: where do you think we
are with respect to syria? steven: i think we are going for a significantly longer period of violence. this is a vortex taking in the surrounding countries. the u.s. has a different perspective from turkish allies. turks believe if you bring down the regime, you go a long way towards resolving the isis problem. the break un-american policies we just don't believe it. there is no horse to bet on here. if assad goes, the cast will likely continue for some time. charlie: with that, had to stop. thank you so much. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪